Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

ndentonprotsack
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Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:44 am
Real Name: Nicholas Denton Protsack

Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Dave,

Thank you for taking all these steps! What exciting stuff. Apologies for my delayed reply; I have been working like a fiend at PhD writing and finally handed in my proposal yesterday. Today I flew to a music residency in Northern BC, so I’ve been a little occupied. Will have some time in the coming days to breathe, however.

I want to write a proper reply when I have a little more time (including a pic of an extensive test of the new symbols), but for now:
-I VERY much like the edits to the symbols and think they are going to be in ship-shape when I test them… however, for some reason the triple dent up symbol is invisible, and I can’t get it to show in fontforge (???) any idea why this may be?
-I am extremely excited by the prospect of adding Stoic to SMuFL and very grateful for the suggestions you have made so far to set that in motion. I want to read and stew with it a little more carefully so that I can respond in a meaningful way.
-I will reply to the other details shortly as well!

Thank you for your work and guidance on this project, it has been a great learning experience for me, and so cool that something so useful (both to my creative practice and, hopefully, to microtonal music as a whole) has come out of it!

More soon,
N

Dave Keenan
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

ndentonprotsack wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:33 pm Dave,

Thank you for taking all these steps! What exciting stuff. Apologies for my delayed reply; I have been working like a fiend at PhD writing and finally handed in my proposal yesterday. Today I flew to a music residency in Northern BC, so I’ve been a little occupied. Will have some time in the coming days to breathe, however.
Congrats on the submitted application and the residency. Sorry for hassling you, particularly given how long it took me to get back to it recently.
I want to write a proper reply when I have a little more time (including a pic of an extensive test of the new symbols),
Among those, it would be cool to see a 4:5:6:7:9:11:13 chord on G.
but for now:
-I VERY much like the edits to the symbols and think they are going to be in ship-shape when I test them… however, for some reason the triple dent up symbol is invisible, and I can’t get it to show in fontforge (???) any idea why this may be?
Ah! Well spotted. I had a look and found that somehow I'd managed to set its advance width to a large negative number! This is fixed in the attached. While I was at it, I set all the symbols' advance widths to multiples of 64 fu, which aligns them to the 8 PPSS grid, which improves their appearance on 96 pixel-per-logical-inch screens (coarse dot pitch) when the staff is the standard 1/3 of a logical inch high. Each symbol now has approximately 128 fu (2 pixels) of right-sidebearing. This is the same as the existing Sagittals.
-I am extremely excited by the prospect of adding Stoic to SMuFL and very grateful for the suggestions you have made so far to set that in motion. I want to read and stew with it a little more carefully so that I can respond in a meaningful way.
-I will reply to the other details shortly as well!
It may be a year or more before the next SMuFL update, so you needn't rush on that.
Thank you for your work and guidance on this project, it has been a great learning experience for me, and so cool that something so useful (both to my creative practice and, hopefully, to microtonal music as a whole) has come out of it!
You're welcome, Nick. Thanks for the good idea that started it.
Attachments
Stoic Sagittal-6.sfd

Dave Keenan
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Since the 6 PPSS bitmaps will be used as the forum smileys, and they will never appear on an actual staff, I decided I had to increase the vertical spacing of the double-scrolls in the 6 PPSS bitmaps so they align with the barbs in the 10 dent symbol, in the same way they do in the 8 PPSS bitmaps and the font outlines, even though that makes their vertical spacing out-of-proportion compared to the 8 PPSS bitmaps and the font outlines.

Attachments
Stoic10thAttempt.png

Dave Keenan
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

I have added the 18 new symbols of the Stoic extension to the forum smilies. 1, 4 and 8 (in red) are pre-existing Spartan symbols.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

To use them, click on View more smilies when editing a post, or type their smiley codes between colons, such as :/|(((: for  . Don't forget that consecutive slashes or backslashes need to be separated by a space. e.g. :\ \ \!: for  . [Edit: It turns out that's no longer necessary. :\\\!: works just fine.]

volleo6144
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Dave Keenan wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:23 pm Don't forget that consecutive slashes or backslashes need to be separated by a space. e.g. :\ \ \!: for  .
I never actually understood what caused that to have to happen?
Last edited by volleo6144 on Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
just some guy who can sometimes have a hard time not coming off as condescending (I'm definitely very awkward in public) but can at least acknowledge that that's almost never the intent

and also math, math, math and also CS

Dave Keenan
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

volleo6144 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:04 am
Dave Keenan wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:23 pm Don't forget that consecutive slashes or backslashes need to be separated by a space. e.g. :\ \ \!: for  .
I never actually understood caused that to have to happen?
The problem is described here.
viewtopic.php?p=13#p13

When you preview or submit a post, the forum software applies a whole series of regular-expression pattern-match-and-replace operations to implement BBCodes and smilies and to automatically recognise URLs and turn them into links. It's difficult to avoid interactions between the various regexes. I think there are some pre-processing regexes that escape certain characters in certain contexts so they can survive later regexes, then some post-processing undoes those escapes.

Every time I make a modification to the forum source code, I make trouble for myself every time I update the forum software (phpBB) from then on.

With the standard regexes, a smiley code would be ignored if it was not preceded and followed by a whitespace character (or one of a few other characters), so I had to modify some regexes to allow things like F:#: for F or E:b::/|: for E .

When this resulted in problems with the double slashes and double backslashes, I decided that adding spaces to the smiley codes was a lesser evil than trying to modify yet more regexes to allow the doubles, because the latter would require more effort on every update and would risk other unforeseen interactions with other regexes. And it doesn't affect users, if they use the "View more smilies" palette to insert those smiley codes.

[Edit: It turns out it's no longer necessary to insert spaces between consecutive slashes or backslashes. Explained below.]

Dave Keenan
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

I'm glad you asked about that, Volleo! After posting the above, I thought you were probably the kind of guy who would enjoy seeing the source code mods (to the file: forum/phpbb/textformatter/s9e/factory.php).

Code: Select all

	// Only parse emoticons at the beginning of the text or if they're preceded by any
// one of: a new line, a space, a dot, or a right square bracket
$configurator->Emoticons->notAfter = '[a-z\\"]'; // Changed by Dave Keenan, 11-Jan-2019. Was '[^\\n .\\]]' // Ignore emoticons that are immediately followed by a "word" character$configurator->Emoticons->notBefore = ''; // Changed by Dave Keenan, 11-Jan-2019. Was '\\w'

When I saw that the date on those mods was 2019, but I first added smilies in 2015, I was reminded that in 2019 the phpBB devs completely changed the way smilies worked, thereby forcing me to rethink my mods from scratch (exactly the kind of trouble I like to avoid). At the time of that update, I was just desperate to get Sagittal smilies working again. But just now I thought: I wonder if that 2019 change made the problem with double slashes and double sloshes go away.

So just now, I added optional smiley codes without spaces, for all the sagittals with double barbs, and they seem to work just fine! So thanks for prompting that review!

I've now made the spaceless codes be the defaults — the ones you get when you click on the palette — but I'll leave the spacey codes as optional codes so I don't have to find and edit every such code in the forum, and just in case we find some less-obvious problem with the spaceless codes in future.

ndentonprotsack
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:44 am
Real Name: Nicholas Denton Protsack

Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Dave,

Thank you for doing all of this! Really satisfying, and sorta surreal to see the stoic bitmaps available on the forum as glyphs, now! I am very, very happy with how they have turned out...
I am finally back from my residency (which was crazy busy) and I am totally ready to dig into getting Stoic "out there", and all that entails. First things first, I have finally gotten around to testing the finished symbols on the staff. I think they are great! My only (slight) concern is the triple hook symbol when it is on a space of the staff; the top and bottom hook are somewhat obscured by the staff lines since they are more horizontal than they used to be... other than that, it looks amazing! Those final tweaks made a huge difference:

I need a refresher on what the next order of business should be? Should we start by showing it off to the Facebook groups and seeing what people think? I can also make a new page on my website dedicated to it and make it available for people to download (much like you can obtain several HEJI files for Dorico/Sibelius etc. on Marc Sabat's website). Finally, we should definitely continue the SMuFL talks. Your initial idea to use those remaining allotted spaces (E410 to E41F) sounds like a solid plan to me, and I agree completely with the naming conventions you have proposed ("Nevo" is a fun way to put it for sure)!

All the best,
Nick
Attachments
Stoic Sagittal demo 3.png

Dave Keenan
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

You're right, Nick. The double and triple scrolls are still not good enough for prime time. They still lose too much against the staff lines. So it's back to FontForge for me.

After we have outlines that we're happy with, the next step is to copy them into a modified version of the Bravura font, with a name like "Bravura-S", placing them at the code points we want them to have in SMuFL, and hence in a future official version of Bravura.

I don't think we should distribute the "Stoic Sagittal" font that we're using here for our testing convenience, even after we're happy with the outlines. That could just result in confusion in future.

Dave Keenan