Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

ndentonprotsack
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by ndentonprotsack »

Hello to both of you!

Apologies for delayed reply; got busy with other PhD stuff. Thanks for the pointers about how to properly post images. I was wondering why it would take them a couple days to show up :lol: (Thanks for fixing them, Dave!)

I think these bitmap designs are looking great! Thanks for that final edit. I am happy to call it ready for crowd scrutiny! I am going to make a new post on the Microtonal Tuning page, and direct people to this post as a link in the comments of the previous post. That way, it'll be visible to more people who may wish to give their two cents.

Great point about the Stoics being Athenians---I think it fits the bill, great! Also, Diogenes was considered by many to be a precursor to the Stoics, so it syncs up with that other idea I had as well!

Looking forward to chatting more once we see what the others think!

P.S. I am going to take a stab at FontForge myself, but on my end, I'm going to hold off until this post and new batch of suggestions have run their course.

ndentonprotsack
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by ndentonprotsack »

Hello Gang,

It's been a while, but I finally found time to teach myself Fontforge (sort of) and get to a level where I could create a serviceable rendering of the proposed symbols. The font file can be found here, and the new symbols are located starting at "F000" (near the bottom): https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8goebg4ti6pd ... l.sfd?dl=0

While I have completed the lion's share of the work, my limited experience with the software is such that I feel that these are only "okay"... The "Dent" symbol (in all it's iterations) looks a little awkward, but I am not sure how to improve it. If either of you would like to take a stab at improving the set, I would greatly appreciate it!

Best,
Nick

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Dave Keenan
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by Dave Keenan »

Well done Nick!

Before anyone else has a go at it (I agree the Stoic right scrolls can be improved), would you please copy the middle-of-three-right-scroll and the middle-of-three-left-barb to become unencoded components, and include them in all the Stoic symbols by reference only, with appropriate x and y shifts. This will allow us to change them in one place and have them automatically update in all symbols.

To do this, choose Encoding->Add encoding slots. Add 4 slots, as we will also need two new forms of shaft, which would be named single-for-dbl-left-and-single-right and single-for-dbl-left-and-dbl-right (without the hyphens). It seems that a shaft designed to take double flags will also work with triple flags. But in the case of double Stoic right scrolls, it seems best to use a shaft designed for single non-Stoic right flags (as you have done in the 2 dent case).

Here are the shafts I think we should use for each number of dents. The two new ones are shown coloured.

1 single-for-single-right
2 single-for-single-right
3 single-for-double-right
4 single-for-single-left
5 single-for-left-and-right
6 single-for-left-and-right
7 single-for-single-left-and-dbl-right
8 single-for-double-left
9 single-for-dbl-left-and-single-right
10 single-for-dbl-left-and-single-right
11 single-for-dbl-left-and-dbl-right
12 single-for-double-left

Also, it would be good for compatibility with SMuFL, to arrange the Stoic symbols in the order +1, -1, +2, -2, +3, -3 ...

Then I would need to see the 8ppss bitmaps in the correct position and scale in the background layer, for comparison with the two new components.

ndentonprotsack
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by ndentonprotsack »

Hello Dave!

Thank you for these pointers; I am still very much learning this software, but my command of it is improving. I am pretty sure I have adequately tackled everything you have requested. I also improved the shape of the dent symbol a little (with help from the bitmaps as a guideline---btw, I only needed to use the bitmaps as guidelines for the first two symbols of the set, as using them for the rest became redundant). Here is the resulting file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8goebg4ti6pd ... l.sfd?dl=0

(I ended up only making one new shaft---the way the triple dent symbol works allowed me to "get away" with this. However, if you feel that another should be added, just let me know or feel free to do it yourself when you take a stab at improving the dent symbol).

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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by Dave Keenan »

That was quick. I agree we don't need another shaft variant, given the way your new right scroll interacts with the shaft. In fact, to be consistent with what you've done for 9, 10, 11, I think we should have the same right slope on the top of any shaft that has any Stoic right scrolls. New list below. Those in red are those that are different from what we have now.

1 single-for-double-right
2 single-for-double-right
3 single-for-double-right

4 single-for-single-left

5 single-for-single-left-and-dbl-right
6 single-for-single-left-and-dbl-right
7 single-for-single-left-and-dbl-right

8 single-for-double-left

9 single-for-dbl-left-and-dbl-right
10 single-for-dbl-left-and-dbl-right
11 single-for-dbl-left-and-dbl-right

12 single-for-double-left

Other suggestions:

Ensure the scale factors for the bitmaps in the background are exactly 64, both horizontally and vertically.

Put relevant bitmaps in the background of the unencoded flags at the end of the font. Both the one-of-three right scroll and the one-of-three left barb.

Check the one-of-three left barb against the bitmap too. It looks to me like it might be a bit too steep and a bit too short. And maybe even a bit too thick.

"Checking against the bitmap" means ensuring that the outline covers more than 50% of any black pixel and less than 50% of any white pixel.

To achieve that with the scroll, I think the outer part of the scroll will need to be more like a reversed barb, i.e. straight. Then there would be a tight curve just before it meets the shaft.

To achieve that, I think you will need at least two more control points at the transitions from straight to curved.

Unlike a real barb, the outer end of this scroll should be cut off horizontally (as you have it now) not vertically. But I note that the rightmost corner control-point could be up to half a pixel further to the right than it is now (without changing the advance-width of the symbols that contain it).

Notice how, in the bitmap versions of the +9-dent symbol, the outer part of the scroll appears almost co-linear with (but thinner than) the lower left barb. In the 6ppss version, the outer part of the scroll appears slightly steeper than the left barb.

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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by ndentonprotsack »

Dave,

Thank you for these suggestions, they were very helpful! I have incorporated them all and made some further modifications of my own: I followed the bitmap for the Dent symbol religiously at first, and then deviated from them slightly to optimize visibility for all possible positions on the staff. I also created my own set of sharps, flats, and naturals, designed to specifically compliment the stoic set. They take up less horizontal space, and form parallel lines with the stoic symbols, making everything look neat and tidy. Here is the fontforge file (I moved all the symbols to the "basic latin" field so they are easier to find): https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8goebg4ti6pd ... l.sfd?dl=0

Finally, I saved the font as a .ttf and imported it into Dorico to test it out; after many hours of trial and error, I think the resulting symbols are about as optimized they will be able to get... but perhaps you will have some further suggestions?
I have included a .pdf of the results below, containing a 72EDO-ified excerpt from Jeux d'eau by Ravel to show them in action and a layout of all the possible symbols:
[image]download/file.php?mode=view&id=362[/image]

Looking forward to seeing what you, (and others) think.
Attachments
Stoic Sagittal Test Doc.pdf
(124.1 KiB) Downloaded 18 times

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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by Dave Keenan »

Thanks for that. It's quite different from what I had in mind for the scrolls. Here's what I had in mind.

Stoic Sagittal-1.sfd
(45.47 KiB) Downloaded 12 times

How do your sharps, flats and natural differ from standard ones, apart from not being as wide? In what sense do they form parallel lines with the stoic symbols, that standard ones would not?

ndentonprotsack
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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by ndentonprotsack »

Hey Dave,

Heh, well, in spite of the many hours I put into this, I am more than willing to admit your interpretation of the bitmaps works better for readability. That being said, the one thing I liked about my design was the overall thickness of the scrolls (which made the single dent symbol more visible when it appears on top of a line of the staff). Thus, I created a hybridized version that combines the best features of the two. Let me know what you think, and please feel free to edit again---that was very helpful! https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhb7kmu15bqai ... l.sfd?dl=0

Regarding the parallel lines formed between the sharps/flats, the bottom left corner of the flats, sharps and naturals are designed to line up exactly with the endpoint of all the downward-pointing sagittal glyphs. Similarly, the top right corner of the upper "bar" on the sharp sign is designed to line up with the endpoint of all upward-pointing sagittal glyphs. When I say "line up", I mean one could draw a completely flat horizontal line between the two endpoints; hopefully this makes sense.

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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by ndentonprotsack »

Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention: I reduced the horizontal width of the Dent symbol so that it matches the width of the :|(: symbol exactly. This seemed like a good idea for the sake of continuity with Athenian.

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Re: Simplified "Stoic" Sagittal for 13-limit tonality diamond use

Post by Dave Keenan »

I didn't check them against the staff lines. I trusted you to do that, and you didn't disappoint.

I think that what this is all trying to tell us, is that we can't get away with a single shape of right scroll for all three cases: single, double and triple.

What if the single right scroll for the Stoics was exactly as it is in the existing Sagittals, and the triple right scroll was as in my recent edit, and we come up with something that is in some sense midway along a morph between those two shapes, for the double case?

After all, that's what we're doing with the single, double and triple left barbs.

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