cam.taylor wrote:Is there any way to put all the smilies on one page, so we can see them along with pronunciation all without hitting pop-up boxes? Maybe this web format makes things difficult, but that sure would be nice.
We're preparing a post for this thread that will do that, and will also give the upward ASCII shorthand characters for the spartans and athenians. You can only get the downward ones from the sagispeak names. And we'll make it accessible directly, via a link from the main Sagittal web page.
It has been delayed by something you wrote in your interval naming post which I thought was obviously a good idea and am waiting for George to approve. You should know that the optional wai wao for
is purely the result of you suggesting it. We were holding "w" in reserve as an alternative for
in languages that don't have "z", or don't distinguish its sound from that of "s" (Spanish), or "j" (I forget which langauge(s)). But George realised we could just recommend respelling "z" as "ts" in those cases. "ts" doesn't occur otherwise, because the "s" and "t" flags are on opposite sides, and in the opposite order.
I see you've got the slash diacritic pronounced as a medial "r" or "l". Quite like that. This is incredibly high-precision territory and the "pronunciation key" packs a WHOLE lot of information into that little word.
That's not actually a diacritic. It's a flag -- the left scroll (left concave flag) or 19-schisma flag. It looks like a diacritic when it appears in conjunction with a left barb (left straight flag). However the true diacritics never actually touch the core symbol or shaft that they appear with. But yes, it's brilliant how "r/l" blends with so many other consonants, because left-scroll is combined with so many other flags in the high-precision Promethean extension, including the few 3-flag symbols.
We're happy for "r" to be pronounced in any of the many ways it is pronounced in various languages. It is even OK for it to stray over into "kh" territory, as it does in French, where it is almost pronounced /x/, because in French "kh" should be respelled as "tch" anyway. And these consonants are only used for very-rarely-used symbols.
I also see you've got
as "o" (the default low vowel) and
as "i" (the default high vowel). Very very good, but how do they connect with regular flags' pronunciation? Before? (After certainly wouldn't work) Is E
(a pythagorean diminished fourth from C spelled as a schismatic major third) "E opao"? Is a pythagorean comma above C then C
You got it.
What happens when we have two accent marks, does that make a double-vowel? Long vowel? as in "E oopao" or "E ōpao"? Sorry if this is getting a bit too detailed, I'm just getting excited and trying to learn the whole system. It looks very logical and pretty intuitive.
It's very pleasing that you are so excited. And even more pleasing that it's intuitive enough that you can just guess how it works.
But in this case I must disappoint you, because there are no symbols with double 5-schisma diacritics (about 2 cents each). However, if there were, I would totally go with what you've just proposed, with the long vowels.
However, up in the realm of the gods, in the Olympian (extreme precision) notation, there can be symbols with one or two 13-limit schismina diacritics (called "mina" diacritics for short, and worth about 0.4 cents each). At present these are represented by using the same diacritics, but putting them to the right
of the core symbol (or bare shaft). And so, their syllable comes at the end of the word, even though it's possible that in future we will instead use a different shaped diacritic to the left
of both the core and any schisma diacritic. But as you noted, we can't just add a bare "o" or "i" to the end of the word. George's solution was to insert a consonant that we haven't used for any flag, or for any pair of flags in spartan. One consonant for a single mina diacritic and another for a double mina diacritic. This is the least used part of Sagittal, so it got the consonants that were left when everything else had been assigned. We used "m" for one, and "b" for two. Fortunately those have some obvious mnemonics: mono and bi, or mina and bi-mina.
Just one little thing I have when combining a flag and an apotome symbol with a nominal or interval size. I think they should be combined in that order, i.e. flag name *before* flat/sharp/double flat, or interval name (e.g. minor 6th) etc. So "E pai flat" and "pai minor third" (or possibly "pai flat third") rather than "E flat pai" and "minor third pai"? (flat third pai?), this second order sounds very weird to me. This is also the order they're written on manuscript using mixed Sagittal, although of course the notehead there comes LAST, as in "pai flat E", which is a little counterintuitive to say.
First, I must point out that the term "flag" is used to refer only to those parts of a Sagittal symbol that are not shafts or diacritics. There are 8 types of flag, corresponding to what would be left if you removed the shafts (the long vertical lines) from these 8 symbols:
So symbol = shafts + flags + diacritics.
I totally agree that in the case of the interval names, the sagispeak word should come first. But in the case of the pitch names, George and I agree (at least in the case of mixed Sagittal) that the sagispeak word should come last. We reason by the following analogy. As you point out, although we write it on the manuscript as
O where the "O" represents an E notehead, we pronounce it as "E flat", i.e. the least significant part is said last. So what is notated on the staff as
O should be pronounced "E flat pai". Another reason is that, to many musicians, "E flat" is just another note name in its own right, not really considered as a modification of an E. And so "E flat pai" is read as "(E flat) pai" and therefore it would be completely unnatural to insert the word "pai" between the "E" and the word "flat".
In the case of the pure Sagittal, i.e. using multi-shaft sagittal symbols and no conventional sharp or flat symbols, George thinks the multi-shaft symbols should be pronounced the same as their mixed counterpart so that
O is "E sharp pao", same as
O. But I think it would be good to distinguish the multishaft symbols by reversing the order and making a single word, so that
O is "E paosharp".
Of course you are free to use them however you see fit.