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"Sagispeak" - Page 2 - The Sagittal forum

"Sagispeak"

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cam.taylor
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby cam.taylor » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:21 pm

Last edited by Dave Keenan on Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: So /|\ would display as intended

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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:43 pm


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cam.taylor
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby cam.taylor » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:39 pm

Dave, I've finally seen the full updated "smilie" list, with names. Looks amazing, and answers a LOT of questions. I started writing a post about the pronunciation of unusual flags and diacritic marks for usage in discussing very high precision intonation, but found my question mostly answered by hitting the "view more smilies" button and looking at page two. Impressive.

Is there any way to put all the smilies on one page, so we can see them along with pronunciation all without hitting pop-up boxes? Maybe this web format makes things difficult, but that sure would be nice.


I see you've got the slash diacritic pronounced as a medial "r" or "l". Quite like that. This is incredibly high-precision territory and the "pronunciation key" packs a WHOLE lot of information into that little word.

I also see you've got :.: as "o" (the default low vowel) and :': as "i" (the default high vowel). Very very good, but how do they connect with regular flags' pronunciation? Before? (After certainly wouldn't work) Is E :.::\!: (a pythagorean diminished fourth from C spelled as a schimatic major third) "E opao"? Is a pythagorean comma above C then C :'::/|: "C ipai"?...
What happens when we have two accent marks, does that make a double-vowel? Long vowel? as in "E oopao" or "E ōpao"? Sorry if this is getting a bit too detailed, I'm just getting excited and trying to learn the whole system. It looks very logical and pretty intuitive.


Just one little thing I have when combining a flag and an apotome symbol with a nominal or interval size. I think they should be combined in that order, i.e. flag name *before* flat/sharp/double flat, or interval name (e.g. minor 6th) etc. So "E pai flat" and "pai minor third" (or possibly "pai flat third") rather than "E flat pai" and "minor third pai"? (flat third pai?), this second order sounds very weird to me. This is also the order they're written on manuscript using mixed Sagittal, although of course the notehead there comes LAST, as in "pai flat E", which is a little counterintuitive to say.

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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:22 am


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George Secor
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby George Secor » Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:18 pm

Sagittal Shorthand and Sagispeak
--------------------------------
19 Sep 2015
 
Following is a plan for single-character ASCII shorthand for single-flag and athenian-level single-shaft symbols, integrated with spoken names for all single-shaft Sagittal symbols.
 
Sagispeak symbols not containing a mina diacritic (a.k.a. right-accent) always end with a diphthong, either "ao" for downward alteration (as in "dOWn") or "ai" for upward alteration (as in hIGH). The diphthong occurs once and only once in a symbol name, and it indicates the overall direction of pitch alteration. The consonant(s) preceding the diphthong are determined by the downward shorthand characters of the constituent single-flag symbols according to the table given below. An exception is that the shorthand character "\" (for 5-comma down) becomes the consonant "p" ("pental"). Thus :\!: is named "pao", and :/|: is "pai".
 
The number of consonants in a symbol name will generally be the same as the number of flags in the symbol and will occur in the same order (left-to-right).  For a symbol having two flags on opposite sides of the arrow shaft, the consonants in the name are separated by the vowel "a" (pronounced "AH").  Thus, since :!): (7-comma down) uses shorthand character "t", :\!): is named "patao", and :/|): is "patai".

If a symbol has two flags on the same side of the arrow shaft, then the two consonants are not separated and are blended where possible, as shown in the following table.  If a symbol contains a double flag (same flag type on same side), then the corresponding single-flag consonant is combined with "h" to form a double-letter consonant.  Thus :\ \!: is named "phao", and :/ /|: is "phai".
 
If a symbol contains a schisma diacritic (a.k.a. left accent), then the prefix "o" (down) or "i" (up) is added to the symbol name. Thus :'::\!: (diaschisma down) is named "ipao", :.::\!: (pythagorean comma down) is "opao", and :.::/|: (diaschisma up) is "opai". If a symbol contains no flags, i.e., only diacritic(s), then the last diacritic vowel "o" or "i" becomes "ao" or "ai" to satisfy the condition that a diphthong must occur once in a symbol name. Thus :.::!: is named "ao", :!::.: is "mao", and :'::|::': is "imai", but :.::/|\::': (11:17M diesis, 33:34) is "opakaimi".
 

Multi-shaft (or "pure") Sagittal symbols have the same names as their mixed-symbol counterparts. Thus F:||\: and F:#::\!: are both named "F-sharp-pao" in English and may be written "F#-pao". Since most other languages do not use the terms "sharp" and "flat", the Sagittal name may be appended to the appropriate pitch names, separated by a hyphen.
Last edited by Dave Keenan on Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:52 am, edited 5 times in total.
Reason: Updated as agreed, to show "u" as the upward version of "n" in the plain-text shorthand, and replace the previous use of "u" with "o".

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cam.taylor
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby cam.taylor » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:03 pm


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Dave Keenan
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:59 pm


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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:34 pm


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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:22 pm

I note that it is extremely unlikely that anyone will ever use any ASCII shorthand for :~!(: or :~|(: because (a) they represent a 17-comma in JI and are used in only very large EDOs, and (b) in either proposal, "u e" or "e c", the mapping is too obscure, so people will almost certainly just use the ASCII longhand ~!( and ~|( instead.

And I note that in either proposal, we already do have "n" as downward while "m" is upward. We have already accepted that, just as we have accepted the similar problem George points out involving "r", in the interests of being consistent between pronunciation and downward shorthand. So having accepted that, I see no further problem in having "u" as upward while "w" is downward.

If in doubt, a user can reason as follows: "n" and "u" are obviously an up/down, or down/up, pair. The downward letter always corresponds to the consonant in the Sagispeak pronunciation (whenever the corresponding symbols have a single-consonant pronunciation, as these do). "u" is not a consonant, therefore "n" is down and "u" is up.

So we really should be asking only which ASCII shorthand is more logical, memorable or visually obvious:
or

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Xen-Gedankenwelt
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Xen-Gedankenwelt » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:11 am

While I agree that it is confusing that n/u is used "in an upside-down way" compared to w/m, I think it becomes very intuitive if you imagine the Sagittal symbol / add the "stem" to the letter. If you think of the middle-line in 'm' or in a more round variant of 'w' (similar to ω) as the stem, the direction becomes intuitive. Similarly, you can think of 'n' as a reduced 'h', and of u as a reduced 'μ'.
(this may not be perfectly intuitive, since h already represents another accidental, but maybe it still helps)

I guess it's not perfect, but it'll work that way. I have to admit though that I didn't work much with Sagittal in practice yet, so my opinion may not carry much weight.


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