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The Sagittal forum • "Sagispeak" - Page 3
Page 3 of 3

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:17 pm
by Dave Keenan

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:48 am
by Xen-Gedankenwelt
I'm not sure how helpful it is, but here are my thoughts:

If we ignore limitations, I would start like following:


o for down and i for up is very intuitive, similar to the ao and ai in the accidental pronounciations. And if we consider the d key on a conventional keyboard as a point of symmetry, c is the white key below d, and e the white key above d. Also, in a C major chord 4:5:6, e is above c, and c is the lowest note. So at least for me, c = down and e = up would be intuitive.

However, I think it's not a good idea to use o, because it looks similar to a note head, a zero, or a ° (-> used for diminished chords), so I would replace o with *. I can associate the * with an o, so that would still be intuitive for me.

But your rules imply that * must be an up symbol, and c can't be a down symbol, and swapping them would result in your initial suggestion:


For me that's probably the best solution that fulfills the requirements, but the accidental directions are a little counterintuitive to me - especially since I tend to associate bright vowels like i and e with "up" / "high".

A possible mnemonic for the first pair is that you can see stars above you in the sky, and i -> infra- (= below). But I have trouble with e / c, unless I try to remember that it's the opposite of what is intuitive for me.

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:23 pm
by Dave Keenan

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:46 pm
by Dave Keenan
A possible alternative is:


This has the advantage of using the well-represented* mnemonic as to which is down (letter) and which is up (special character), and avoids the possible confusion that "p" might have with pao :\!: or pai :/|:. *There are 6 other cases of letter/special-character (out of a total of 18 pairs of characters). All 6 are down/up respectively.

But why don't I like "oe" as a pair? I guess it's because "e" looks only very slightly like some kind of up-arrow compared with the obvious upwardness of "p" and the upwardness-by-precedent of the special-character "@", and its visual pairing, by shared circularity, with "o".

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 11:12 am
by George Secor

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:02 pm
by Dave Keenan
Thanks George. I can go along with that. So the final decision for those two is:

And the complete revised document follows.

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 12:03 pm
by Dave Keenan
Sagittal Shorthand and Sagispeak
--------------------------------
24 May 2016

Following is a plan for single-character ASCII shorthand for single-flag and athenian-level single-shaft symbols, integrated with spoken names for all single-shaft Sagittal symbols.

Sagispeak symbols not containing a mina diacritic (a.k.a. right-accent) always end with a diphthong, either "ao" for downward alteration (as in "dOWn") or "ai" for upward alteration (as in hIGH). The diphthong occurs once and only once in a symbol name, and it indicates the overall direction of pitch alteration. The consonant(s) preceding the diphthong are determined by the downward shorthand characters of the constituent single-flag symbols according to the table given below. An exception is that the shorthand character "\" (for 5-comma down) becomes the consonant "p" ("pental"). Thus :\!: is named "pao", and :/|: is "pai".

The number of consonants in a symbol name will generally be the same as the number of flags in the symbol and will occur in the same order (left-to-right). For a symbol having two flags on opposite sides of the arrow shaft, the consonants in the name are separated by the vowel "a" (pronounced "AH"). Thus, since :!): (7-comma down) uses shorthand character "t", :\!): is named "patao", and :/|): is "patai".

If a symbol has two flags on the same side of the arrow shaft, then the two consonants are not separated and are blended where possible, as shown in the following table. If a symbol contains a double flag (same flag type on same side), then the corresponding single-flag consonant is combined with "h" to form a double-letter consonant. Thus :\ \!: is named "phao", and :/ /|: is "phai".

If a symbol contains a schisma diacritic (a.k.a. left accent), then the prefix "o" (down) or "i" (up) is added to the symbol name. Thus :'::\!: (diaschisma down) is named "ipao", :.::\!: (pythagorean comma down) is "opao", and :.::/|: (diaschisma up) is "opai". If a symbol contains no flags, i.e., only diacritic(s), then the last diacritic vowel "o" or "i" becomes "ao" or "ai" to satisfy the condition that a diphthong must occur once in a symbol name. Thus :.::!: is named "ao", :!::.: is "mao", and :'::|::': is "imai", but :.::/|\::': (11:17M diesis, 33:34) is "opakaimi".


Multi-shaft (or "pure") Sagittal symbols have the same names as their mixed-symbol counterparts. Thus F:||\: and F:#::\!: are both named "F-sharp-pao" in English and may be written "F#-pao". Since most other languages do not use the terms "sharp" and "flat", the Sagittal name may be appended to the appropriate pitch names, separated by a hyphen.

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 1:43 pm
by Dave Keenan
I'm working on ideas for a "keyboard layout" for Microsoft Windows computers. This is software that can be installed to to allow a user to type a memorable sequence of keys to obtain any Sagittal symbol rather than having to find it in a palette or look up its unicode value (they begin at U+E300). These key sequences would always begin with a special "Sagittal" key which would be a repurposing of some otherwise rarely used key such as Scroll Lock, Insert, Right Alt, Right Ctrl or Caps Lock. They might then consist of either the long ASCII representation of the symbol, the short ASCII (for those that have them) or a sequence of keys representing prime numbers to be multiplied together and a possible slash to divide them (in the case of JI notations). Some ideas for the latter, which would almost be a JI notation calculator (except that it would not give the nominal) are described here:


But I just want to mention in this thread, an idea relating to the short ASCII, since this has just been finalised.

Because the slash / and slosh (backslash) \ characters are also used in the long-ASCII and as a division character in the prime number method for entering JI Notations, I decided that I wanted some other characters to use for entering the 5-comma symbols :\!: :/|: by the short-ASCII method. I decided the downward character should be the same as the sagispeak character, as it is in so many other cases, so it should be "p" in this case, and I chose "l" for the upward character due to its proximity to "p" on the keyboard, and since the only other option is "c" which seems less like an opposite for "p". So for :\!: and for :/|:.

I may decide not to include short-ASCII as an option in the keyboard layout, since it may still conflict with the other entry methods. Or I may use the shifted version of the downward character as the upward in all cases, so for :\!: and + for :/|:, for :\!/: and + for :/|\:. Just thought I'd mention it in case anyone else has any preferences or ideas regarding such a keyboard layout.

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:18 pm
by cam.taylor
I rather like the idea of using shift to flip keyboard shortcuts from lower alterations to upper alterations, just as the shift key usually flips us from lower to uppercase letters. Sagittal+p for :\!: and Sagittal+P for :/|: sounds very intuitive, and I would imagine one could become quite quickly proficient.

Re: "Sagispeak"

Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 6:16 pm
by Xen-Gedankenwelt
I completely agree with Cam, using an additional key to toggle up/down direction of accidentals is much more intuitive for me than using different letters, even if those are nearby on the keyboard.


About the single-character ASCII notation:

I agree that o isn't that much of a problem when you use an (uppercase) O for noteheads, and I like that e is up / o is down.

I'm also happy that @ isn't used, because I use that for macros in my own ASCII-based microtonal score format, and which is the only special character that can't be separated from a note in certain cases. It's still in development, and currently not an active project, so it wouldn't have been bad if I had to use a different character, but I'm still happy. :D

The one thing I don't like is that i is used for a downward accidental, which is counterintuitive, as ! is already a downward accidental in the multi-character notation, and both look like an up/down pair. But as mentioned before, there's no 100% satisfying implementation, and I think it's good that a final decision has been made. :)