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"Sagispeak" - The Sagittal forum

"Sagispeak"

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Dave Keenan
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"Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:03 pm

I thought that the drawbacks of a tuning-independent way of pronouncing the accidentals would outweigh the benefits, until George showed me the beautifully simple system he'd come up with.

In George's pronunciation system, the directions up and down are just two vowel sounds. "Ao" is pronounced exactly like the vowel sound in the word "down", and that's what it means. "Ai" is pronounced exactly like the vowel sound in the word "high", and that's what it means. Then we just put different consonants in front of these to indicate what kind of a down or a high it is. For the 5-comma (syntonic comma) left-half-arrows it's a pental down and a pental high, so we pronounce them pow(n) and pigh [we don't sound the (n)] and we spell them pao and pai. Sharp and flat stay the same, and we can also have pao sharp and pai flat.

George hasn't published the full system yet. He's still deciding on some of the consonants. I got special dispensation to release the info about "p" being used for the pronunciation of the 5-comma symbols. But don't assume the 7-comma will be "s" for septimal, since we have septendecimal (17) commas too, and commas that have the prime seven in combination with others. The consonants for all single-flag symbols (other than the 5-comma) are likely to be based on the similarity between the downward version of the symbol and a lowercase consonant letter. In fact the same letter we use for the short ASCII representation of the downward accidental. Unfortunately there is no lowercase letter that looks like the downward 5-comma symbol \! given that we want to reserve "v" for the 11-diesis down symbol \!/.

Juhani
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Juhani » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:14 am

Please keep in mind that the new prefixes or suffixes don't necessarily translate easily to other languages, especially those such as mine (Finnish) or German or Swedish where flats, sharps, and double flats and sharps are expressed as suffixes.( C C# Db Fbb Ax = C Cis Des Feses Aisis in Finnish.) Should I talk about music written in Sagittal with Finnish musicians, we'd be unlikely to switch to English for note names (incidentally, we also have H for B and B for Bb, as in German). So we'll have to come up with our own nomenclature, anyway, and the closer it can be to your English version, the better.

J

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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:41 am

Thanks for raising the issue of language independence. We certainly intend for the pronunciations to be language-independent and appreciate any help you can give us in ensuring that. We believe we have chosen phonemes which are common to most languages. In my post above I only described the usage for naming intervals (in the extended Jazz interval naming system), not pitches, because we were discussing interval names when this branched off from the 22edo Workgroup thread on Facebook. Is there any problem with calling C#/ and Db\ Cispai and Despao? In English they would be C sharp pai and D flat pao.

The mnemonic I gave for English speakers, where ao = down and ai = high, was purely that -- a mnemonic invented after the fact. The vowel sounds (both dipthongs) were actually chosen because they have a language-independent mnemonic. When you pronounce "ao" the weighting of the harmonics sweeps downward in pitch. When you pronounce "ai" the weighting of the harmonics sweeps upward. You can see this in sonograms. Maybe you can come up with a mnemonic like "down/high" that works in Finnish and other languages you know.

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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:02 pm

Attachments
SingleFlagDown.gif

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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:13 am

We can now embed real sagittal symbols in posts, by clicking on them in a palette in the editor, as you can see below. I don't know about you, but I think this is awesome! :D

C:#::\!:
E:b::/|:
F:/|\:
B:!):

[Edit: No need for the Sagittal "smilies" to be preceded by whitespace any more. They can be preceded by an uppercase letter or another accidental.]

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cam.taylor
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby cam.taylor » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:32 am

This is totally awesome. I'm jumping on my computer to write more. I'm keen to help out with choosing the other phonemes as much as I can.

Are the sounds listed the same as in IPA? Or is "j" here actually the IPA phoneme /dʒ/, as in "judge"?
Making sure we're as universal as possible is a very good call, I feel.

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cam.taylor
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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby cam.taylor » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:06 pm

I'm assuming we only want to use one of the phonemes in a voiced/unvoiced pair such as /t/,/d/ or /k,/g/, one of /l/,r/, and possibly only one or possibly two nasals to avoid confusion where there is lack of distinction in some languages.

However I'm still seeing an aspirant (/h/), a nasal (/n/, /m/, or /ŋ/), probably /l/ (easier than a jawed /r/ in most languages), and possibly semivowels /j/ and /w/ free for the taking.

When combining flags, we combine the sounds of those flags right? So what's the default two-part name for :/|):? (pai+tai)

Some consonants can be combined directly like :~|:sai+ :|):tai=:~|): "stai"?, but most obviously cannot, particularly when their vowels also differ.

I would perhaps suggest /h/ for :!(: since it's a light sound, a small adjustment, and it looks like an h. Just a suggestion.

Though, scrolling over the symbols I noticed just now all have short names, so have these already actually been decided?

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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:20 pm


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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:17 pm

We had a bug where the double backslash in ":\\!:", which was the obvious smiley code for :\ \!:, was interpreted correctly on Preview but interpreted as a single backslash on Submit, and therefore gave :\!: instead. And the colon slash slash in "://|:", which was the obvious smiley code for :/ /|:, was interpreted as part of a URL, and made an unholy mess. So now I've put a space between the two backslashes and the two slashes in the smiley codes to work around this. It won't make any difference for people who click the symbols on the palette, but unfortunately those who prefer to type them will have to remember to include the spaces in ":\ \!:" and ":/ /|:". Nothing bad will happen if you don't. They will simply remain as unconverted text.

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Re: "Sagispeak"

Postby Dave Keenan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:54 pm



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