cam.taylor wrote:Are the sounds listed the same as in IPA? Or is "j" here actually the IPA phoneme /dʒ/, as in "judge"?
We are hoping to have fixed spelling across all languages that use latin/roman characters, and in order to do so we are happy to allow different pronunciations, with "j" being probably the widest. It has at least four different pronunciations, e.g. english /dʒ/, german /j/ (english "y"), french /zh/, and spanish /h/ (english "h"). That then means we can't use any other letter that that has the same pronunciation, in any language, as any of those. I don't think my "/zh/" above is proper IPA. Perhaps you can tell me what it should be? In reality I think we will have to allow a limited number of pronunciations for each letter, and then recommend alternative spellings for some languages. But it would be good if alternative spellings were not needed for the Spartan set:
I'm assuming we only want to use one of the phonemes in a voiced/unvoiced pair such as /t/,/d/ or /k/,/g/, one of /l/,/r/, and possibly only one or possibly two nasals to avoid confusion where there is lack of distinction in some languages.
I'm in full agreement there. We should only use a second one of each of those confusable pairs if we're forced to do so for pronouncing some of the more rarely used features of Sagittal such as diacritics.
However I'm still seeing an aspirant (/h/), a nasal (/n/, /m/, or /ŋ/), probably /l/ (easier than a jawed /r/ in most languages), and possibly semivowels /j/ and /w/ free for the taking.
Agreed, except if we allow /h/ /j/ and /dʒ/ for "j" as above, we can't use the letters "h" or "y".
When combining flags, we combine the sounds of those flags right? So what's the default two-part name for
Some consonants can be combined directly like
"stai"?, but most obviously cannot, particularly when their vowels also differ.
The plan so far is that you use the flag sounds in the order they appear in the symbol, and drop the "ai" or "ao" diphthong from all but the last. The diphthong is just the overall direction of the symbol. If the flags are on opposite sides of the shaft you put a short "a" between them. So
would actually be "satai". Only if they are on the same side do you blend them if possible, otherwise you put an unspelled schwa between them. If they are two of the same flag (which will necessarily be on the same side of the shaft) then the plan is to replace the second occurrence with an "h". Conveniently the only such combinations are "pp" -> "ph", "ss" -> "sh" and "kk" -> "kh".
I'm sorry I haven't put up all the Sagittal glyphs as smilies yet. Only the Spartan single-shafts will ever appear beside the edit window, but you can see which others I have included so far, by clicking "View more smilies". However, if you continue to spell them as their long-ASCII form surrounded by colons they will eventually get turned into the proper symbols, and in the meantime we can see what you mean anyway. I note that the smilies are religious about using exclamation ! for a down shaft and vertical bar | for an up shaft. You can't get away with :\|/:.
I would perhaps suggest /h/ for
since it's a light sound, a small adjustment, and it looks like an h. Just a suggestion.
That's one I championed for some time too. But George convinced me that it was more important to preserve the alternative pronunciation for "j", and the digraph spelling of the double-same-flags. And I think an initial "h" is silent in some languages. It is silent in some dialects of English. So George convinced me to accept "n" for
, which is like the symbol with (most of) it's shaft missing, as are some other short-ASCII characters for Sagittals.
Though, scrolling over the symbols I noticed just now all have short names, so have these already actually been decided?
Nothing is set in stone at this stage. The forum software required me to give them some
name. I'd be pleased if you would ignore them. I'd be happy to see what you can come up with independently. Although some of the things George has come up with so far seemed so good I couldn't help mentioning them as I have.