39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

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Dave Keenan
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby Dave Keenan » Fri May 13, 2016 9:09 am

I finally posted the one-symbol-per-prime notation:
http://forum.sagittal.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=99&p=263#p263
In that notation, you can see that all primes up to 37 have exact symbols without any accent marks.

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yahya.abdal-aziz
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby yahya.abdal-aziz » Fri May 13, 2016 11:34 am

Nice work, Cam!

And I really appreciate the info on the research on usage frequencies (in Scala) done by yourself, Dave, and Gene, particularly the ultra-Zipf-law-like behaviour. It gives one confidence that just about anything JI has been well considered in the design of Sagi.

Dave Keenan wrote:I did mean Spartan (plus right accents). Just to show what can be done with that small readily-learnable starter set, and avoid freaking out newcomers with symbols for ratios they may never need. But I guess the real starting point for learning Sagittal for JI should be the 13-limit multi-Sagittal that uses only 4 of those 8 Spartan symbols.


I'm not quite a newcomer, but never yet a practical user of Sagittal, despite many years of reading about (and applauding) the immense efforts and contributions made by many to developing this powerful JI notation. So ... this may not be the correct forum to pursue this question (Education, perhaps?) ... but I'd like to see:

a) A lesson or tutorial on using the "beginner" set of just 4 Spartan symbols, covering:
- which 4 symbols,
- the ratios involved,
- a small sample piece, both notated and heard,
- an "exercise" or two to self-test comprehension (perhaps involving a comma pump?)

and

b) Information on how to use ("implement" or "install") Sagittal within a number of different notation software packages, starting with Mus2, I guess.

I mean, I'd really like to start using Sagi sometime soon, not just read about it! :)

Regards,
Yahya

---------------------

Yahya Abdal-Aziz
Mildura
Victoria 3500
Australia

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cam.taylor
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby cam.taylor » Fri May 13, 2016 2:51 pm

Nice work, Cam!


Thank you!!

this may not be the correct forum to pursue this question (Education, perhaps?) ... but I'd like to see:

a) A lesson or tutorial on using the "beginner" set of just 4 Spartan symbols, covering:
- which 4 symbols,
- the ratios involved,
- a small sample piece, both notated and heard,
- an "exercise" or two to self-test comprehension (perhaps involving a comma pump?)


I guess I should get cracking on something like this, maybe make a blog post involving examples in 13-prime limit JI and perhaps some fairly accurate equal temperaments like 41 or 46, alongside something simpler like 19 and 22, to show just how simple the notation can get in practice.

and

b) Information on how to use ("implement" or "install") Sagittal within a number of different notation software packages, starting with Mus2, I guess.


This I can probably help you with, I've only got the demo version of Mus2 but have already made quite a few symbols for Sagittal JI, as well as a set-up for 41edo IIRC. I could probably just send you the files for accidentals I've made, but would be happy to show you how to make your own accidentals in Mus2.

The big problem at the moment is, Mus2 and most other programs which actually do proper microtonal playback don't support multi-symbol accidentals, so for the full implementation of Mixed Sagittal, we have to wait until a Multi-symbol font is released...

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Dave Keenan
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby Dave Keenan » Sat May 14, 2016 1:35 am

Great to hear from you Yahya. Your points are all good ones. Cam has correctly described the way forward. To answer one small question (Which 4 symbols?), please see the diagram here: http://forum.sagittal.org/viewtopic.php?p=263#p263

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cam.taylor
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby cam.taylor » Wed May 18, 2016 8:51 am

Hi again folks. I've started making a few other diamonds as per Dave's suggestions, and by doing so I found 4 errors in the notations of 7/5 and 7/15, where in G :.::|)::#: and C :.::|)::#: the 7-commas should have been downward instead of upward, i.e. G:.::!)::#: and C:.::!)::#:, and in ratios 35/5 (=7/1), 35/15 (=7/3), 5/35 (=1/7), 15/35 (=3/7), where for some reason I'd written symbols for way different ratios what looks like 81:64 apart... No idea why that might be, but hopefully most of the silly mistakes have been fixed now.

I've attached a version with these errors corrected, as well as what I think is a correct Herculean precision 13-prime 45-limit diamond (no minas). I'm working on a similar Athenian diamond now.
Attachments
45-ODD 13-PRIME LIMIT DIAMOND IN HERCULEAN SAGITTAL.docx
(70.1 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
39-ODD LIMIT DIAMOND IN SAGITTAL.docx
(150.79 KiB) Downloaded 20 times

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Dave Keenan
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby Dave Keenan » Wed May 18, 2016 10:38 am

Thanks Cam!

But when I try to download them I get a message "The selected attachment does not exist anymore." Do you have any idea why? I can still download your original 39-limit chart.

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yahya.abdal-aziz
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby yahya.abdal-aziz » Wed May 18, 2016 12:41 pm

Dave Keenan wrote:Thanks Cam!

But when I try to download them I get a message "The selected attachment does not exist anymore." Do you have any idea why? I can still download your original 39-limit chart.


I've just downloaded both successfully.

Then I opened them in Word 2003 and saved them in the older ".doc" format. Hope I didn't lose anything significant! :o

Regards,
Yahya

---------------------

Yahya Abdal-Aziz
Mildura
Victoria 3500
Australia

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Dave Keenan
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby Dave Keenan » Wed May 18, 2016 1:20 pm

I can download them both now too.

The only tiny error I can see is an extraneous space in a notation for 5/1 in both charts. I note that you can edit your post to delete and reupload a corrected attachment.

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cam.taylor
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Re: 39-odd limit diamond in Olympian

Postby cam.taylor » Wed May 18, 2016 2:16 pm

Thanks. Yes, I already edited my above upload twice when I found little mistakes, but I think I've still found a couple more. Will upload my most recent version shortly, along with my Athenian diamond and what I'm currently working on, a multi-Sagittal version, which actually looks like a whole handful, and might not be quite as intuitive as I thought. Will get back to you later with those.


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