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The bravura font is missing tons of symbols??

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:13 am
by William Lynch
I have looked through nearly every section in mus2 in the Bravura font and it lacks tons of needed symbols for mixed sagittal. For example, while all the symbols for 22 EDO are there, :/|::b: and :\!::#:, the needed symbols for 24 EDO are non existent. For some reason there is :/|\: :\!/: :\!/::b: :/|\::#: but the needed 3/4 signs :/|\::b: and :\!/::#: are not in the font or aren't showing up.

Re: The bravura font is missing tons of symbols??

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:32 pm
by Dave Keenan
William Lynch wrote:I have looked through nearly every section in mus2 in the Bravura font and it lacks tons of needed symbols for mixed sagittal. For example, while all the symbols for 22 EDO are there, :/|::b: and :\!::#:, the needed symbols for 24 EDO are non existent. For some reason there is :/|\: :\!/: :\!/::b: :/|\::#: but the needed 3/4 signs :/|\::b: and :\!/::#: are not in the font or aren't showing up.

Hi William. Sorry for moving your post, but it suggested an important sub-forum we were missing, so I created it and moved your topic there. BTW, I'm guessing you missed my questions to you in http://forum.sagittal.org/viewtopic.php?p=209#p209.

The Bravura font isn't actually missing any Sagittal symbols. What you're talking about here are pairs of symbols, or more generally strings of symbols. The limitation lies with your notation software, not the font, as evidenced by the fact that the Lilypond notation software is quite happy to allow strings of symbols against a single note, with playback (if I understand Graham Breed correctly). Imagine if your word processor insisted that every time you wanted a number, say 1729, there had to be a single symbol in the font containing that number, instead of just stringing together the symbols for the digits 0 to 9.

"But", I hear you say, "there are symbols for some mixed-Sagittal strings, why not all of them?" That's because the font you are looking at is not actually Bravura. It is a version I modified and called BravuraMSS, for "Mixed Spartan Sagittal". Because of this limitation of Finale, Sibelius, and apparently Mus2, I made a copy of the font and replaced all the multi-shaft Spartan Sagittals with their mixed-Sagittal equivalents as single characters. Because this was a significant amount of work, and because I had hopes that new notation software would soon appear without this limitation, I decided not to do this for the entire Sagittal set until someone actually expressed a need for it.

"Well", I also hear you say, "I now have need of the strings :/|\::b: and :\!/::#: for 24edo." Actually, you don't. It doesn't make sense to use two symbols altering in opposite directions like this when a single symbol will do. In 24edo :/|\::b: = :\!/: and :\!/::#: = :/|\:. In JI :/|\::b: = :(!): and :\!/::#: = :(|):.

Re: The bravura font is missing tons of symbols??

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:52 am
by William Lynch
Dave Keenan wrote:
William Lynch wrote:I have looked through nearly every section in mus2 in the Bravura font and it lacks tons of needed symbols for mixed sagittal. For example, while all the symbols for 22 EDO are there, :/|::b: and :\!::#:, the needed symbols for 24 EDO are non existent. For some reason there is :/|\: :\!/: :\!/::b: :/|\::#: but the needed 3/4 signs :/|\::b: and :\!/::#: are not in the font or aren't showing up.

Hi William. Sorry for moving your post, but it suggested an important sub-forum we were missing, so I created it and moved your topic there. BTW, I'm guessing you missed my questions to you in http://forum.sagittal.org/viewtopic.php?p=209#p209.

The Bravura font isn't actually missing any Sagittal symbols. What you're talking about here are pairs of symbols, or more generally strings of symbols. The limitation lies with your notation software, not the font, as evidenced by the fact that the Lilypond notation software is quite happy to allow strings of symbols against a single note, with playback (if I understand Graham Breed correctly). Imagine if your word processor insisted that every time you wanted a number, say 1729, there had to be a single symbol in the font containing that number, instead of just stringing together the symbols for the digits 0 to 9.

"But", I hear you say, "there are symbols for some mixed-Sagittal strings, why not all of them?" That's because the font you are looking at is not actually Bravura. It is a version I modified and called BravuraMSS, for "Mixed Spartan Sagittal". Because of this limitation of Finale, Sibelius, and apparently Mus2, I made a copy of the font and replaced all the multi-shaft Spartan Sagittals with their mixed-Sagittal equivalents as single characters. Because this was a significant amount of work, and because I had hopes that new notation software would soon appear without this limitation, I decided not to do this for the entire Sagittal set until someone actually expressed a need for it.

"Well", I also hear you say, "I now have need of the strings :/|\::b: and :\!/::#: for 24edo." Actually, you don't. It doesn't make sense to use two symbols altering in opposite directions like this when a single symbol will do. In 24edo :/|\::b: = :\!/: and :\!/::#: = :/|\:. In JI :/|\::b: = :(!): and :\!/::#: = :(|):.


Not really though, correct 24 ET enharmonics require proper symbols IMO. Neutral chords or "Vao chords" should be notated as thirds.

Re: The bravura font is missing tons of symbols??

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:48 am
by Dave Keenan
William Lynch wrote:Not really though, correct 24 ET enharmonics require proper symbols IMO. Neutral chords or "Vao chords" should be notated as thirds.

Can you give an example of a neutral chord where you need :/|\::b: or :\!/::#: to notate it as thirds?

I don't believe there are any, for the simple reason that changing :\!/::#: to :/|\: does not change the nominal, and it is the nominal that determines whether the interval reads as a third. e.g.
C E:\!/: G
C:/|\: E G:/|\:
C:#: E:/|\: G:#:

Re: The bravura font is missing tons of symbols??

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:02 am
by Dave Keenan
William Lynch wrote:For example, while all the symbols for 22 EDO are there, :/|::b: and :\!::#:, the needed symbols for 24 EDO are non existent. For some reason there is :/|\: :\!/: :\!/::b: :/|\::#: but the needed 3/4 signs :/|\::b: and :\!/::#: are not in the font or aren't showing up.

I only just realised you described :/|\::b: and :\!/::#: as "3/4 signs". They are in fact 1/4-tone signs, since the first goes down a half and up a quarter, and the second goes up a half and down a quarter. In 22edo :/|:  :\!::#: and :#: are 1, 2 and 3 degrees, but in 24edo :/|\:  :\!/::#: and :#: are 1, 1 and 2 degrees.

Re: The bravura font is missing tons of symbols??

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:26 pm
by Dave Keenan
At Juhani's suggestion, I installed Mus2, and when I go to Score > Symbols, click the Add button, select "New Accidental", click Acquire from Font, select Font: Bravura and Character Range: 455: U+E300...U+E37F or Character Range: 456: U+E380...U+E3FF, I see the expected Sagittals.

Incidentally, you can get to those character ranges quickly by clicking in the Character Range field and typing "455↵" or "456↵" (without the quotes) with no pause between the digits. The more common Sagittals are in range 455, but those you want for the 5n notations for 20edo, 25edo and 30edo, :)~|: and :~~|:, are in range 456.